Podcast Episode “Kyoto & the Japan Travel Bubble”

This transcript was generated automatically. Its accuracy may vary.

0:01

Intro

That's one of those little things, again, you can't see in the picture you they don't put in the movies, but it's what was so wonderful for me.

It's not the wild goose chase of how many attractions can you go to that I would say would be winning in Kyoto.

It would be going to one a day or two a day, but taking your time.

0:19

You don't have to be a hero at travel.

You just have to be true to where you are, be respectful and make it a great experience.

And there's more than enough of Japan and Kyoto to go around.

0:38

Speaker 2

Thanks for checking in.

This is the Japan Travel Pros podcast.

Each week we bring you stories and fresh perspectives about the people and places that make Japan so interesting.

0:49

Speaker 3

Along the way.

0:49

Speaker 2

You'll hear practical advice for planning your own trip in this episode.

We have our first guest, our very first guest on the Japan Travel Pros Podcast.

Brad and I have been friends since high.

0:59

Speaker 3

School.

1:00

Speaker 2

We studied Japanese together way back in the day, and in a real way, we started our Japan journeys at the same time we've both spent time in Japan.

Over the years, our paths have crossed multiple times in Japan and around the world.

For the 1st guest episode, this really felt like the right place to start.

1:15

Now you're going to hear us talking about food, about technology, but also maybe getting away from the screen.

And what happens when Japan becomes less of an idea and more of a real place that you're determined to experience?

Stay with us through the end.

Brad has some great advice for anyone planning a first trip or return trip to Japan.

1:35

Japan Then & Now, In the Media & More

Growing up in the 80s, Japan was the future.

It was what everyone looked to as like with some fear and some excitement, what we might be going toward.

And it's funny because I was thinking in terms of movies.

And so I think like it, it went, it predates that's we're not as old as James Bond.

You only live twice.

Like neither of us are born Then you know, there are many scenes there where they use the same imagery where he's dropped into a subway car and the Japanese intelligence officer says, surely you have this in London.

2:01

And of course, James Bond smirk.

But he didn't, right?

So Japan was way advanced even in the the 60s in perception.

And then somehow the movie Gung Ho came up because it was more somber.

It was actually a lot of after a lot of job losses in the early 80s and a lot of the things we seem to be doing wrong, Japan seem to be doing right, but actually quite deep in a lot of ways.

2:23

And did a really nice treatment on how superficially were different, but but deeper down were the same.

And that was, those are some of the undercurrents of Japan when we were, at least when I was starting to get to know it.

2:36

Speaker 3

Lost in translation and and and movies like that.

We rewatched that a couple of years ago, a few years ago and already we're just pointing at the screen like OK, that's wrong No, you wouldn't do that.

I.

2:46

Speaker 1

Liked the movie as like a beautiful way to capture total jet lag and dysfunction mentally, you know, and physically because you're just in such a foreign place compared to where you're from.

So I think that movie says more about where you're from than it does about Japan.

3:04

Speaker 3

Yeah, and, and most of it took place in in the Park Hyatt itself, and a lot of that at the bar on, you know, an island in in the middle of Shinjuku.

Geniuses, geniuses over at the Park Hyatt closed it down for over a year, I think a year and a half for a major renovation in the middle of a Japan travel boom, mind you, and then reopen about six months ago.

3:26

And of course, they're charging exorbitant rates to try to make up for not having that that revenue.

So every time our clients look at it and say, Oh yeah, I want to, I want to stay at that place that was in Lost in Translation.

Then they look at the prices like, yeah, you know what, I want to go have a cocktail at that place.

That was in Lost in Translation.

3:42

Speaker 1

We we look at Japan in in so many ways now through big media and not everyday life.

And that's probably true of the US too.

I hear, you know, right now, not to date the podcast too much, but the World Cup is on and people are coming to the US with probably very different perceptions than, you know, they're experiencing.

4:05

Fortunately, people are turning out in their experiences, the travelers experiences to be really, really nice, way nicer than they thought.

And everyday life is much more humble and similar in, you know, what people are aspiring to.

4:20

Then you might see if you only watch the national news or international news from from here or somewhere else.

So Japan's the same way.

Like, I think the best thing is the small alley or the convenience store, as you covered, you know, last time on your podcast.

It's the small things rather than the, you know, the big theatrical moments.

4:39

Speaker 3

And then as you, as you mentioned, Brad, expectations and perceptions versus reality on the ground and that those can go either way. 30 years ago, a similar event to World Cup, it was during Olympics and I had a client, I was living in Japan.

I had a client, a client was a multinational company and they were a sponsor of Olympics.

4:57

Their advertising campaign in Japan was to have youth reporters from Japan reporting on the Olympics.

The thing that stood out the most for them, every one of those kids was staying in an American home.

An employee of that company opened their home for two weeks.

5:15

And how is those kids and treated them not just like guests, but really like family.

And I think that was really surprising for those kids that they that ended in the best possible way.

Much as you said, Brad, that they had these perceptions of is it, is it safe?

5:30

Well, they were safe.

They were staying with families of this multinational in in in the suburbs in Atlanta.

And those are all adults know with probably many of them have their own families.

That probably stands out as the as the memory of having that yeah experience.

5:42

Speaker 1

For sure the best experience of my time.

5:45

Living in Japan, Appreciating the Details

I lived in Japan, as you know, for a year after college and I was in a moderate sized city.

And then I went every weekend to a tiny city and we were ostensibly playing taikodrums, which are, you know, the really great Japanese tradition.

6:05

I say ostensibly because I wasn't any good at it and and it was mostly powered by enthusiasm, but we were like treated like, I don't want to say royalty, more like family, like you say, because we just hung out.

And when my family came to visit, we would bring them down there because I wanted to share these relationships.

6:24

And it's all the little things.

And the one of the nice things about Japan that you don't see in the Instagram pictures is we'd sit around, there was food, there was drinking, everything was plentiful.

At the end, there's some magic signal that someone you know, you eventually start to see.

6:42

In the beginning, I was clueless and eventually I got the hint a little bit faster.

But everyone starts to put things away.

Everyone picks up the garbage.

It's spotless in about 12 minutes and here in the US it's somebody's job to pick up the garbage and no one else does it.

6:59

I suppose I did take that for granted.

I didn't realize how how much better it could be if everyone one didn't pollute and you'll cover that the the no garbage thing but cooperated to pick it up.

It would meant it was all painless and it was just so nice to be part of that.

7:17

And that's one of those little things, again, you can't see in the picture you they don't put in the movies.

But it's what was so wonderful for me about living in Japan.

7:25

Speaker 3

Yeah, and Brad, you were, you were teaching at A at a high school.

7:30

Speaker 1

Actually, it was a high school, but it was a technical high school.

Turned out to be significant that it wasn't one of the classic, classic sort of hardcore academic high schools.

It was the the they would say second tier career track, but to me it was also amazing because these are the everyday people that I would see in everyday US.

7:52

But you don't get celebrated outside of Japan.

7:56

Speaker 3

These were not the kids going to Tokyo University afterwards, these were the kids going to probably going to work at 18 essentially.

8:03

Speaker 1

Yeah, they were learning how to string cable and do construction, which society needs and Japan is really good at, but it was not the academic track.

8:14

Speaker 3

And these days, I bet a lot of those kids are actually doing really well compared to some people going is AI going to take my job?

AI is probably not going to take a lot of their jobs.

8:23

Speaker 1

Right.

The pressure was also off.

So they would probably say they're in a different Japan too.

They also because of the flip side of having low expectations put on you, which is unfortunate, is they also had no expectations.

So they would smile more and laugh more and the level of stress was much lower.

8:43

But yeah, there was a a human side that that you didn't often see in the mainstream portrayal of Japanese schools in particular.

8:51

Speaker 3

It's really cool.

It's something that a lot of us wouldn't necessarily think about.

8:55

Speaker 1

Yeah, nor did I, I was just lucky I got the luck of the draw to be a sign there.

8:58

Speaker 3

In that school, do you remember the kids cleaning the.

9:02

Speaker 1

Classroom every day, after every day they they're sweeping and mopping.

And again, that's one of these things that just happened spontaneously.

All the mops come out, all the rooms come out, everything's turned upside down.

But it takes like 15 minutes and then the place is spotless.

9:17

Even though it was probably 40-50 years old by then, it wasn't a beautiful, you know, fancy Park Hyatt architecture.

It was old and post war and made as efficiently as possible and maintained incredibly well.

9:32

And it did mean something that the kids did it themselves, I'm sure.

Not so much gum under the desk, not so much garbage in the halls, no graffiti, right?

And it was something again, like a glimpse into that spirit that we're all in this together let's take care of.

9:46

Speaker 3

It so to to give a little background for what we're talking about here.

This is normal for kids in school in Japan on a daily basis.

And it's in some cases it's a rolling daily basis like your your team, your group or your class has more responsibility a certain day of the week.

10:05

But ultimately, as you said, you saw kids cleaning the classroom or the halls or other facilities at the school every day.

And this goes on to when you're in university, for example, you're in a club and then when people get into a company, that's not to say they don't employ maintenance staff or cleaning staff.

10:23

They do, offices do and schools do, just to make sure the kids did a pretty good job of especially in elementary school, right?

You want to, they might miss a few spots, but nonetheless, kids are taught, people are taught these responsibilities from an early age.

10:38

And it's very much is, as you said, Brad, the idea that we're all in this together.

And if everyone pitches in, it might just go a little bit better for each and every one of.

10:47

Speaker 2

US.

10:48

Speaker 1

Yeah, the irony is again, back to the clean up after the the drumming team parties, drumming club parties.

If everybody did it that way and it only took 15 minutes, no one would be fighting to not do it.

So it goes hand in hand.

The model works because the model works.

You.

11:03

Speaker 3

Mentioned that there was like this invisible inaudible signal that everyone picked up on that said, OK, it's it's time to it's time to wrap it up.

I was just reminded the other day where in Kyoto there is a phrase, if you have guests over at your home and if you say something very specific, like, oh, would you like some?

11:23

It's like Ocha Zuke, but it's not.

It's like a special version of it.

It's like, oh, where you know, would you would you like some, some of this?

And then the guest is supposed to pick up and say, oh, no, thank you.

You know what?

Wow, look at the time I really have to be going because the host has just indicated that it's time for you to go.

11:41

Speaker 1

That's great because it's something that isn't, isn't trivial.

It's like slightly more than trivial.

So that's your cue.

I wouldn't want to put you out.

So no, of course.

So it's it just embedded in the assumption you don't want to put a burden on someone else.

That's beautiful encoded in there.

11:57

Speaker 3

It is.

That's a Kyoto specific thing.

And there are Japanese from other parts of the country, maybe even from Osaka, which is a very direct culture, even though the cities are next to each other.

Person from Osaka, unless they had heard about this as a legend or something, might not pick up on that and say, yeah, you know what?

12:12

That sounds great.

Let's pop open another beer.

And the host is going, Oh my God, I wanted you to go this episode of the.

12:18

Speaker 2

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12:34

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12:52

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13:08

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13:20

Speaker 3

You lived in Japan in the 90s, you first visited in the 80s and then you've come back.

You've returned as a visitor at different times under different circumstances in the years since.

Maybe talk about that a little bit and what you've seen, what you've felt and and what you've experienced.

13:36

Speaker 1

In the early days, like from James Bond onward, Japan was all about technology.

13:40

Perceptions & Reality in Japan

So when things were mechanized, they were smaller and with kind of unbelievably high quality that those are the two hallmarks.

There were things you would think can't fit on a wrist, can't fit in a pocket, but a Japanese company would would come along and do it.

And it was exciting.

13:56

And I love technology, so it's probably what inspired my career path, which is in technology and making those things.

But but Japan was just like this treasure trove and they were places in Japan where all that stuff was collected, that Akihabara used to be a neighborhood in Tokyo where you would have department store and tiny little shop.

14:15

And they were just after one after another.

And they were just packed with all this latest stuff.

So it it was actually like out of a movie, you would say.

Even today, it feels the magical place.

And Japan was feeding the world a lot of those things, a lot of the innovation came from Japan and went outward.

14:33

Japan always went its own way and had its own standards.

And they were really interesting and really creative, but not compatible with anything else.

And at some point about 20 years ago, I would say the iPhone 1 basically, and Android 1, and a lot of these indigenous operating systems, and then with them design patterns and branding universes essentially just went away.

14:59

And so now it's super cool.

You get to get on a plane, use your phone the whole way, get off, and you're still talking pretty much.

It's amazing that the world is smaller, but it's also so much more boring because you used to actually travel and then be somewhere else and now you can travel, will you?

15:17

Unfortunately, you can live here and be in a bubble and also you can bring your bubble.

And So what we used to be nice about travel in general was that it was far away and it felt far away.

And I'm glad in so many ways, globalization has been good for me in a lot of ways.

But in others it it diminishes the experience of being present in a place that's different than what you're used to.

15:39

Speaker 3

Yeah, the screen thing is, is huge, isn't it?

Because a lot of the times it, it feels like wherever we go, we're still looking at that same screen, which is, which is not ideal.

But also as you mentioned on on the flip side, it it enables us to do some things that we wouldn't either we wouldn't have had the access to.

15:58

Speaker 1

Yeah, it's hard to say that it's a bad thing to be able to to pick up this magic thing device and then be able to hear music from anywhere on the planet at any time in human history.

Pretty much.

And like, that's that's a dream, right?

That's fantastic.

Even if you arrive someplace and didn't have the phone on, you know, you have one.

16:18

But traveling, it's not just to see the thing or to eat the thing.

It's a growth opportunity, and that doesn't always come from the familiar.

So getting yourself out of the comfort zone is the fundamental necessity for getting the most out of the travel experience.

16:35

Japan has represented the exotic from a Western point of view for pretty much all of our lives.

And so it's it's certainly still a part of of its identity, for better, for worse.

And we don't have to live in that forever, but it's certainly a part of what it used to be.

16:49

Speaker 3

Back in the day at 747 Lands, you know it flies from from San Francisco, Tokyo, 100 people step off that wide body in the 1980s or the 1990s and go experience Japan for a week or 10 days or two weeks versus 100 people, 100 visitors step off a wide body today and go experience Japan.

17:09

What are the differences there and how is it maybe getting back to what you mentioned earlier, how is it maybe flattened more now than before?

Is that even correct?

17:18

Speaker 1

In those days, the world was very diverse and you wanted your bubble, I suppose, or they were trying to.

For people who weren't accustomed to traveling.

Maybe if we give you a bubble, you'll go.

I think that was the what they thought.

And when we started going to Japan, it was much more different and felt much more exotic.

17:39

And so it was hard to live in that bubble.

And I think many aspects, many of those aspects of Japan are still there, but it's much easier for a modern tech centric person to stay fairly centered in their own experience, their own current experience.

17:57

And it's not a crime and I do it most of the time.

So I certainly can't preach but but the depth of my engagement in Japan has been less the more digital stuff has been around me.

18:06

Speaker 3

Let's talk about that bubble for a little bit.

Is it possible that the bubble, the bubble that we saw the Japan travel bubble of the 80s and 90s, can we, can we agree that it is it has expanded outward, but that it's there is still a Japan travel bubble?

18:21

Speaker 1

For sure.

And it's almost like the good thing is that people are interested in something new and something different and they're they have almost entirely positive feelings about it.

So that's great.

Like the goodwill level on those people who are landing in Japan, it's, it's got to be high, right?

18:37

I think of it's very, very high excitement and goodwill level.

The limitation would be if they're in pursuit of a caricature and that's it.

And it's not, again, that's not their fault because that's all they know.

But it's not all Japan is.

It's not all any other places.

18:51

Speaker 3

I agree with you Brad, that that they're they're coming with goodwill, good feelings, good intentions, good vibes.

And if they were gently, not even pushed, gently hand held to just take two steps to the side and walk smoothly out of that bubble out into greater Japan, if you want to call it that.

19:11

And go to a place like where you lived in Yamanashi Prefecture, for example.

Or go to a place in Saitama, it's super close to Tokyo.

Or go to a place in Saga Prefecture in the South or Akita Prefecture in the north, a place that doesn't get a lot of visitors.

And you know, you know, you're not in the bubble at least.

19:28

Yeah.

If it's your first trip to Japan and you don't speak Japanese, you'll at least at least be leaving the comfort zone a little bit and leaving the bubble a little bit.

Yeah.

What do you think about that?

19:38

Speaker 1

Yeah, totally, definitely, definitely.

And I was wondering if even anyone has a paper map anymore because it's hard to get lost anymore.

And again, it's magic and I love it and I use it every day.

So I'm not criticizing it, but it detaches me from the world.

It detaches me from where I live here, if I route, you know, most efficiently and I just follow the the blue line.

19:56

So there's something about just like how to help people be really present and.

I guess the little neighborhood where I live, which was chosen for me, so I just lucked out, but had a little restaurant and I was definitely the only non Japanese person there, maybe the only non Japanese person with within a 10 mile radius or pretty darn close.

20:19

And people treated me with, you know, not so much suspicion but like question.

But generally, people were really, really nice.

And the longer you have contact and the longer they have contact, the warmer everything got.

20:36

And it was all those little things where there's the uncomfortable moment.

It was a year of nothing but uncomfortable moments in the beginning of literally everything.

I guess the quest to get through that was good.

But like, I knew there was, I was still curious enough.

20:54

And again, I'm not heroic.

Everyone did that.

You had to do it to get through your day.

But it was a common feeling.

I have no idea what I'm doing.

21:02

Cultural Awareness & Effort

I hope I didn't just offend someone.

And even when we were there just in December, I realized now we did it again, like we were waiting for the bullet train and we got it half right.

Wait for the people to come off.

Don't push, you know, let them come out where you the gates line up perfectly where the train stops.

21:21

And then we went on and I didn't realize all those other people on the side weren't just spectators.

They were waiting to get on and we should have been behind them.

Messed up.

I didn't know that.

And they didn't say anything because they're super polite.

But now I know and we would do it differently next time.

But like all those discomforts and all those little rough edges like that's, those have been the seed to a a great experience.

21:41

Speaker 3

The fact that you cringe now looking back at any one of those experiences, whether it was last year or 2030 years ago, just says that you care.

And you, you're, you're doing your best to make, you know, the best effort possible to blend in is the wrong word.

Cultural immersion is the wrong phrase.

21:57

But at least not be sticking out like a sore thumb.

You know, stereotypical American, for lack of a better word.

With our clients, I'd like to think we take the the same approach.

And a lot of them are either following that cue or maybe actually we're following their cubic because they they come to us saying, OK, I don't, I don't just want to do the stereotype here.

22:16

And I love it when a client says, Ari, can you tell me a little bit about etiquette or Aki, Ari, Anaghi, can you tell me what what not to do here?

Or, you know, I saw this thing and I have mixed feelings of whether this is something we should do.

Can you tell me is this is this cultural appropriation if we do this or how, how will this be received if we do this in Japan?

22:36

Should this be on our itinerary or off of itinerary?

Yeah, I love it when when clients ask those questions and we have those conversations.

Welcome back.

We're talking with Brad and we're talking about how Japan has changed over the years, but also maybe how Japan hasn't changed over the years.

22:52

What do you think, Brad?

You've been to Japan, both living in Japan and visiting Japan at different times.

What have you seen that might actually look familiar in some ways?

23:02

Speaker 1

The overwhelming experiences that things work together.

So you notice how many people, places and things are integrated there.

That's what part of what I love.

Like we mentioned, people do things together.

There's great consideration for how the other person will feel or how you, your actions will affect the other person.

23:19

And I really, really appreciate that.

And that's still there.

A lot of these systems and expectations and norms and, and customs were designed to, to work in harmony and I really, really enjoyed that.

Part of that is also consideration for elders.

23:37

It's not hard to find this.

You find it in your first 7 minutes off the plane and while you're waiting in the immigration line.

The entire staff seem to be 70 or 80 years old, and probably that's a slight exaggeration, but not that much.

I'm not sure if that's success or not.

23:53

It might be hardship on some way.

Like I it might be that they're industrious and they want to stay connected and they're still healthy and they want to contribute.

And it might be that economically they have to.

There could be flip sides of that coin, but but in general, one of the really nice things about Japan is consideration for respect for elders and some sense that people age and that's normal and that's to be desired.

24:18

And in the US, like beyond a point, especially in the popular media, you become invisible.

There aren't too many people beyond a certain age in Japan.

You see a larger spectrum of people in daily life, which again, I enjoyed, but I also thought it was significant.

24:32

Speaker 3

We're talking about two distinct things here and I think both both have merit.

The things that we can see, for example, some of it looks more modern than it used to.

Some places don't necessarily.

24:44

Speaker 1

I mean, the bullet train is still breathtaking.

And I remember my memory had been that it was, say, three, 3 1/2 hours from Tokyo to Kyoto.

And you're like, no, it's like you want 2 1/2 or maybe less if you take a faster train.

And that was amazing.

24:59

And then, OK, well, that's interesting.

That must be every, you know, hour or two.

It's like, no, every 15 minutes.

That's remarkable.

Like to make something so fast, so smooth, so consistent in such large volume.

That's just Japan at its peak.

And it is.

It doesn't happen with one genius forcing everyone else into slavery to make this thing happen.

25:18

It makes you need a community of people dedicated to common standards and high standards.

The safety record is still impeccable, right?

I mean, it's just, it's it's really unbelievable compared to how many things we see that humans make that have been running since 1960.

25:34

Something essentially to perfection in the face of earthquakes and typhoons and what everywhere else would be human decay.

And they're faster now, and they're not inexpensive, but it's less than a flight a lot of the time.

25:49

I just found that to be an amazing experience, an amazing metaphor for what Japan is, is still really incredible at.

25:57

Speaker 3

That's right, the Shin constant, the bullet train in Japan recently celebrated its 60th anniversary.

And yeah, they're going, they're going a little bit faster.

And you'll see if you want to call it superficial changes in terms of different types of seating, the trains themselves over over time.

They look, they look more sleep, but they're they're always different, different versions of it.

26:16

They've just announced that on the Tokyo to Osaka or Sheen Osaka corridor, including Kyoto, for example, they're bringing private rooms more like an office kind of set up back to that trade.

They had it for a while, they went away.

So now there's going to be the ordinary car, the green car, and then you'll, you'll have the opportunity to book essentially a private room with, with a couple of seats in the table And that kind of set up.

26:39

There are the train lines.

There are other bullet trains in Japan that have different, different classes and different versions.

But other than that, basically the, the, the Shinkon sense system in Japan has been coming along.

And yeah, there's the occasional delay due to a typhoon and you're, you're going well, gosh, I mean, it's a, it's a typhoon.

26:57

You think they just shut down for days now It's, you know, it's 5 minutes late here.

I think we had clients last year who were sitting on for an hour or two and they got part of their fare refunded because it at that point it was no longer an express, it was just a training doctor there from A to B.

27:11

Speaker 1

Yeah, You were telling me once that it was some small number of minutes late and they were apologizing, whereas here it would be a rounding error that they wouldn't even acknowledge if it was an American airline, for example.

27:21

Speaker 3

We were on a Shinkansen a few months ago going to Hakata, Fukuoka and just in the last minute or so the train had to slow down or it might have even stopped on the tracks for a little bit until another train left the station.

So we were literally one minute late on arrival and the conductor was apologizing.

27:48

Speaker 2

Hey, quick timeout here.

If you're looking at a trip to Japan and everything is just starting to feel a little much, I think we can help.

You know, there comes a point when more information just makes your head spin.

We get it now.

That's where Japan Travel Pros comes in.

What we do is we help you sort through your plans, focus on what actually matters to you, and then you can make decisions with more confidence.

28:12

Go to japantravelpros.com plan to book a session.

That's japantravelpros.com plan.

28:22

Speaker 3

Welcome back, Brad.

We touched on Kyoto a little bit earlier in the conversation, but let's let's come back to it and go a little bit more in depth because you have a particular affinity for Kyoto.

28:30

Kyoto

I think there's some, there's some great reasons to love it and I think you and your family certainly do.

So you talk a little bit about what first attracted you to Kyoto back in the day and why you continue to go back and how you've you've introduced it now to your family and how they enjoy it.

28:45

Speaker 1

Kyoto is my favorite place in Japan because it is outside of the hustle and bustle.

Even though it's a modern city.

You can drive up in your bullet train, stay in a modern hotel, order a taxi with an app, and those things are awesome.

29:00

But it also is the spiritual and formerly royal home of Japan.

We're talking about Japan over the years and 10 or 40 years, but we're talking with Kyoto 3000, maybe lots, lots of years and direct lineage to Chinese architecture and culture and language and and they built the city from scratch, as I understand it to honor the emperor.

29:29

It is it is just beautiful.

It's dripping with with those contributions.

It's not the wild goose chase of how many attractions can you go to that I would say would be winning in Kyoto.

It would be going to one a day or two a day, but taking your time because a lot of the things that are there, even though ironically, Nintendo is there so it's home to video games.

29:53

The temples are not meant to be Dr. throughs.

They're meant to be sit in and contemplate.

And it's hard to do when you're on a vacation just because you're trying to see things.

It's hard to do because you're not alone.

They say the same thing about the Mona Lisa.

30:10

It'd be really nice if you could just sit there by yourself for a couple hours, but you cannot because there's a lot of people who want to see it and they cram you in.

But that's where to me, the real beauty is of really understanding where the Japanese Ness we talked about Japan still has a sense of Japan and a lot of it really is symbolized in Kyoto.

30:30

Like what is it exactly that we're remembering?

What is it about organizing society and how we single things that are important and how you take time for tradition.

That's really the home base.

And so the last time we went, we actually didn't do many things on quote UN quote the list.

30:52

We only did it.

We only, we made it to a few, but we did get to spend a little more time there and to make an impression and all we would wish for is more of that time.

It was.

It's just a very special place.

31:04

Speaker 3

There are a lot of reasons to love it, but I really like what you say about how it's not the highlight reel that makes Kyoto and it's not the checklist items like you could.

You could do technically zero of those places and still fall in love with Kyoto.

31:21

Speaker 1

Yeah, for sure.

31:22

Speaker 3

Not that you should zero those places.

You should go to some of those places.

But I mean, if you didn't and you spent four days in that city and just walked around and soaked it in and just did local things in local areas and.

31:32

Speaker 1

We did, we and we did because that's the time we had.

We would have preferred to spend more at the 1st place on our list to come back and and spend more time in but but it's not the quantity, it is the quality for sure.

And want just to pick one place if you had to go to one place and then leave the Golden pavilion is just never ceases to be breathtaking.

31:53

And it's funny because a lot of these things, you know, you go to a museum and then you got to go through all these hallways and labyrinth to get to the thing, King Tut's tomb or whatever this place is.

It's like they show you the ending of the movie right as you walk in.

It's the climax at you walk in up the up the thing.

32:10

You go through the gate and it just hits you in the face it and you can't imagine a more stunning view of this stunning thing.

And it's right there and it's just breathtaking is the only word that comes to mind because I still feel by recalling it.

32:25

I still recall that feeling and I remember the nostalgia that when I was there, that's what I felt the first time.

So it was even brought back how shockingly gorgeous it was ages ago when we went the first time.

So if you had to pick one, that's my pick.

Or you may have more, but that is just the kind of thing I could just Flightage fan, spend some time there and come home and it would be a good trip.

32:48

Speaker 3

I love that you said that because I've heard people talk about the Golden Pavilion being a let down or even being a tourist trap.

And yet it's a place that I intentionally put on a number of itineraries or at least encourage a number of clients, a number of people to say, OK, so let's set your expectations.

33:08

It's not a temple in a garden that you're going to go to for that stereotypical Zen calm moment to sit there and, you know, to experience serenity and meditate for an hour in peace and quiet.

It's not going to be that.

And I think once you know that, it opens it up and say, look, you're going to be maybe two or three or four people deep before you get, yes, it is right there, but you'll have to wait for some people to to clear out.

33:34

Not quite Mona Lisa situation, but also not, not desolate, right?

Right.

But worth it, especially if it's a sunny day.

You will catch it with that afternoon sun hitting in, in, in just that moment.

It's an absolute, absolutely beautiful moment.

33:49

It is just that, a moment.

You might only be there for half an hour, and that's fine.

33:53

Speaker 1

Yeah.

33:54

Speaker 3

That's right.

It's memorable.

Clearly it's memorable even even for you.

We've had, we've had clients tell us that as well.

33:59

Speaker 1

Yeah, just spectacular.

And actually one of the things like I'm thinking of why I liked it and what was impressive.

It's OK.

So it's a pretty structure.

It's pretty structure on a lake.

So there's the classic reflection.

If you've seen a postcard of Japan, 9 times out of 10, that's the one.

And then you're thinking, oh, why is it like that?

34:14

Because now I'm in product development, so I know things don't happen by accident.

Someone had to make it like that.

And I'm thinking, OK, someone made it like that a very long time ago.

And so now we're thinking, OK, When someone's in an old society, in the mindset where you're thinking only about today, past doesn't matter, future only matters.

34:32

But if you go to a place like that and you say, wow, someone did something really nice a long time ago, and I'm part of that, you can see why people are proud.

And you can see it just is a very humbling time scale.

Kyoto is just littered with or graced with those kinds of examples of a long stretch of humanity.

34:53

And you realize, wow, yes, we have these magic things in our pockets and we have some robots running around, but maybe we're not as different.

And then maybe the lessons that they learned, we could benefit from as well.

And it that, I think that's why it gets to a spiritual place pretty quickly, because it's all old, but we fit in somehow.

35:12

You can get a connection to it.

It's not that hard to see someone with ingenuity and appreciation made that and they organized society around it.

And these structures are meant to celebrate those things.

That's also something that I took away maybe more now than when I was younger.

Definitely a better late than never, hopefully.

35:29

Speaker 3

With clients as well as we'll say, if you have kids, you might want to plan in some activities like don't go too hardcore temple, temple, shrine, shrine and have multiple days like that, but put in in Kyoto big being a modern city also gives people the opportunity to Hey, the Pokémon center is there, for example, or that the ninja museum is there and, and things, things like that.

35:51

But people are people flock to Kyoto because it's one of the few places in Japan that you can actually see and touch and feel the presence of history in a tangible sense.

And we had a client a while back ask a question or European client ask a question.

36:08

I thought it was a point of question saying, you know, Ari, what what's going on in Japan?

Why is why is there not more?

Is there no respect for history or why is there not more history apparent?

And that's that's actually a great question.

I'd love that you asked that.

And I want to, I want to answer that with respect and to say that Japan actually reveres the past and the place that you see it the most outside of Kyoto, where you can actually see it and touch it and feel a tangily the ways that you see that the most are in traditions and attitudes and behaviors.

36:37

And we've been talking about that in in this conversation.

For example, in our city in Colby, there is one of the oldest shrines in Japan, Equitas Shrine.

I think it's among the top five in terms of oldest in the sense that a shrine has been the Equitas shrine has been on that, in that location, on that property.

36:54

But the only thing that you can tangibly see and reach out and touch are a few holy trees.

And even those are only about 5, only about 500 years old.

That shrine is, they're those new trees exactly.

And that, but that shrine is technically well over 1000 years old.

37:11

I think it goes back to something like the year 800 AD or thereabouts.

The Shinto traditions are still here and all what that means.

That's it.

That's a whole other episode that we can do a deep dive on.

But the beauty of a place like Kyoto is not only can you experience those traditions and see those attitudes and behaviors, but you can also go to the temples and the shrines and the gardens and see it in a, in a physical, tangible sense, right?

37:37

So at the same time, there are other places in Japan that have history and it might be in Kanazawa, for example, it might be a little slice in Kuashiki, or it might be literally A1 block, 1 block of a street in Kawagoe inside someone next to Tokyo.

37:53

And all of a sudden people see that and they'll say, I mean, I'm not sure if it's, you know, chicken or egg.

And this is this is the marketing thing or people's reaction to it.

But they say, oh, this is little, little Kyoto.

So all these places pick up this, this moniker, this nickname of little Kyoto.

Folks, there's only one Kyoto.

38:09

And if, if over tourism is scaring you and if you've heard anything and you say, well, I don't, I don't think you want to go to Kyoto.

We'll just go to one of those other cities and experience a little Kyoto.

No, please, please don't do that.

Please, please go to Kyoto and give it, give it the time that it deserves.

If these things interest you, if you're just a strictly a city person, you want to see modern, then just go to Tokyo and Osaka and maybe we'll talk about some other places.

38:29

But if if you're interested in history and history and its connection with culture, Japanese culture all the way to present day culture, then Kyoto is a great place to to experience that, isn't it brat?

38:40

Speaker 1

Absolutely.

And The funny thing is that even though it's the center of the old tradition, I wasn't a vegetarian when I came the first time, but I am now had the best variety and depth of vegetarian food that we found in Japan, as it turns out.

38:56

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Now on your on your recent trip, you went to the the restaurant at Tenduji, that temple, wasn't it?

39:05

Speaker 1

Oh, spectacular.

39:06

Speaker 3

How was describe describe that meal?

39:07

Speaker 1

Too much food, too much delicious food, You think?

I don't know how many courses, but more than we could eat.

And it was just, I mean, I don't know.

The cliche is it's what you see in magazines, but and probably Instagram.

But it's like beautiful looking food, beautiful tasting food, all vegetarian, all in these preserved traditions of cooking made on the grounds of this 1300 year old temple.

39:31

It may be the oldest active one, right?

Or somehow it's the oldest continuous one.

Or it's it was notable on the West side.

39:37

Speaker 3

One of the oldest and ironically, and I guess this is OK because there's there's certain people who are just going to appreciate a temple and certain people who who that's not that's not their thing and that's OK but immediately adjacent to that temple is the now only recently but now famous bamboo Grove.

39:55

It's it's mistakenly called a forest.

It's not.

But anyway, the famous bamboo Grove in Arashiyama, which is if there's daylight, it's.

In fact, crowded and most people overlook this temple that you're talking about.

40:06

Speaker 1

Well, thanks to you, we went and it was one of the highlights of the trip.

Also, we wouldn't have found the restaurant like it.

You had to know it was there and make a reservation.

Yeah, I've never had food like that in my life.

And I wouldn't mind making that a habit, but it was it was just exceptional.

And also again in in Kyoto.

40:21

So this place known for the old, but still very much place of pleasure today.

40:25

Speaker 3

So what we're talking about here is something in Japanese called Shojim duty, which is essentially Buddhist vegetarian cuisine.

And Brad, the meal that you're describing was actually lunch.

It sounds like it was a dinner that was just lunch.

I mean they only do lunch but imagine if that was even more courses.

40:42

Speaker 1

I think I could eat after that.

So yeah, it was, it took care of that, but it was lunch.

You're right.

40:46

Speaker 3

And there are a number of places in Kyoto that might be the best one, but there are certainly others.

40:50

Speaker 1

Is it the Buddhist tradition or just so many foreigners coming that they they accommodate It's a.

40:55

Speaker 3

Little bit of both.

Tokyo actually still gets more international visitors and you can get types of shogi and duty or types of vegetarian cuisine in Tokyo.

But typically the restaurants that are available in Tokyo and Osaka, the vegetarian restaurants are Japanese adjacent at best or just international in general.

41:14

But what you experience Brad in in Kyoto and they're different places, you can across Kyoto purely a Japanese meal that happens to be vegetarian.

And I would say, I would venture to say that even people who are not vegetarians necessarily, I would still go to those restaurants and enjoy it.

41:32

Of course don't go for something steak but but still a lovely experience and and and very good quality food.

41:38

Speaker 1

Yeah, the Kobe cows are are safe there.

Yeah, it would be.

Yeah, You wouldn't notice.

I would venture to say that as a as a carnivore, you would you would enjoy it just as much because they it's so much about not only the flavor and the texture, but the attention to detail and the setting.

41:54

Satami Room, It was just wonderful.

41:59

Speaker 2

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But you know, the hard part is knowing what actually matters for your trip.

Should you stay here or there at another city or slow down?

42:16

Follow the popular advice or ignore it all together.

But the hotel everyone recommends or the one that actually fits what you want?

That's where a lot of folks turn to Japan Travel Pros.

We help you sort through the choices, make better decisions and feel more confident.

42:34

Before you touchdown in Tokyo or land in Osaka, go to japantravelpros.com.

Plan to schedule a consultation.

42:45

Speaker 3

Welcome back.

We're talking with Brad today about Japan and specifically we're just talking in the last segment about Kyoto.

42:50

Brad's Advice for Travelers to Japan

And Brad, one of the things that you mentioned is I think applicable not only to to Kyoto, but maybe somebody for their Japan trip as a whole.

You mentioned me maybe focus not so much on the highlights.

This is something that you did in your more recent trip and the time that you spend in Kyoto is you didn't really get to the highlights necessarily, but more appreciated Kyoto as a whole and some of the individual pieces and components and snapshots and vignettes of Kyoto this time based on all your experience with Japan.

43:21

Brad, what would you tell someone planning their first trip right now?

43:25

Speaker 1

You're going to be able to stay in a traditional inn.

You're going to be able to eat in the corner store and in the the little shop around the corner and in the alley.

Give yourself permission to steal your phrase, Ari.

You don't have to be a hero at travel.

You just have to be true to where you are, be respectful and make it a great experience.

43:43

And there's more than enough of Japan, Pan and Kyoto to go around.

So if you want to stay at the Holiday Inn or the equivalent at night and get a hamburger at night, fine, enjoy it.

And then just make the most of the days.

That actually takes a lot of pressure off, even in a single.

43:58

And most Japanese people don't do all these things in the day because it's too much logistics.

Yeah.

The most important thing is just to spend as much time doing things you like.

There's a vast array of things to do in a cosmopolitan and ancient city, and there's going to be something that you like that's also a great experience.

44:14

For example, I have a 10 year old son.

Ari mentioned the Ninja Museum.

I kind of cringed at the idea of it, but it was one of the coolest things we did.

It turns out it's extremely tastefully done and it's a history of museum, basically history of samurai.

44:30

That's interesting, that turns out that's war, that's politics.

That's the culture of having kids do it, having women masquerade as boys with mustaches on the masks and all these things I never expected in, you know, on the surface was total tourist trap, waste of precious time in this classic city.

44:50

And so it turned out to be great.

And, and there were many cases we went to we, we had to go to a vegetarian one because we wanted to eat vegetarian.

Turns out that Aryaki found us this really hip, really delicious place.

I've never had, I didn't know you could do that with ramen, but it was amazing.

45:06

And so we were able to eat the food we wanted, but have a pleasant surprise in the heart of Kyoto.

And it was comfortable for us, but also delicious and a new experience.

And it was just great.

And so just extrapolate that to whatever your version of enjoyment is.

45:23

Give yourself permission, as Ari says, to be comfortable and to do what you need to do to get engaged.

45:29

Speaker 3

Really good advice.

That's something that we all do it when we travel, and not just to Japan.

Maybe Japan's more of a hyper compressed, massively focused example of it, but that we think, Oh my God, I have to make the best of every single waking minute or I failed myself or I failed my family.

45:47

And we're not going to have these memories.

And it turns out that the the best memories you have are of not necessarily random experiences, but yeah, kind of random experiences are just kind of things that you just, you found yourself because you weren't paying attention to the checklist.

Now you're paying attention to what's actually out there.

46:01

Speaker 1

Another one, this is this might be dated if we have robot cars in a few years, but get the Go taxi app.

There were many times when in the spirit of conquering Japan and quote UN quote, like winning at you know, the experience by surmounting a great challenge.

I wanted to navigate the trains, get everyone on there, but it would have taken three times as long and cost a little bit less, but not that much given we don't have that many that many hours in the city.

46:27

And there were a few times we just got in the car, had a 25 minute nap or rest with jet lag, got to the other place a little fresher and much and had much more time to spend at the Golden Pavilion, for example, or in this other district that we wanted to see.

46:43

I never would have thought I would have been doing that before because I get, I want to get out of the smartphone and into the travel experience, but it really helped us actually optimize the travel experience.

That was a very, very nice surprise.

The.

46:56

Speaker 3

Top means of conveyance by distance in Tokyo or Osaka is probably train or a public transit train and bus combination, something like that.

And then #2 walking and maybe the occasional taxi.

But in Kyoto, public transportation is not a great option.

47:13

If you're traveling as a group on a bus in Kyoto and there are locals, you might be getting some, some nasty looks because what they're, what they're effectively telling you is why the heck didn't you just take a taxi?

And thank you for trying to win the game, because that's Brad.

I think you put it well.

It's like, Oh no, no, Japanese only use public transit.

47:31

Therefore we have to, we have to use public transit when we're in Japan.

Japanese people use taxis all the time.

Go Taxi is a Japanese app.

The Uber app will work in Japan, but it effectively calls you a taxi or a car service.

Anyway.

The when in Rome approach to say when in Kyoto would be probably your biggest means of conveyance might be walking and then number 2 taxi and then third distance.

47:50

Third would be public transit.

Because chances are the trainer, the bus is not going to where you want it to go.

And even if it does, it's going to be circuitous.

You're not going to enjoy it if there's more than one of you.

47:59

Speaker 1

Take a taxi.

Yeah, it was really a godsend, especially there.

So as you say, like it is different.

Kyoto taxis were pleasant, really helpful.

Tokyo not that enjoyable.

Would have been faster to walk half the time.

And then it's those in betweens that are really going to make your trip.

48:15

We did walk between, I want to say Shibuya.

What is north of Shibuya?

Harajuku.

And we walked and it was super cool.

We saw some old Olympic stadiums and we saw, you know, design studios and all these things that are there, but you're not going to see them in, you know, unless you're on the ground.

48:36

And so that was, again, one of the nice, pleasant surprises of those 45 minutes we really enjoyed.

48:41

Speaker 3

What can repeat visitors to Japan do differently?

Maybe it's the fact that they've checked off some of the highlights on their first trip and now they can do this.

Or what?

What do you learn?

48:50

Speaker 1

This is something I would tell myself, and I'm telling myself, too.

I would like to go to a new place every time.

So I'd like to go someplace that's not familiar.

Maybe it's famous, maybe it's not.

It's OK if it's famous but haven't been there.

Like, I've never been to Hokkaido.

And I came from, as you did, Ari, a place that's cold in the winter.

49:07

And there was a winter festival in our place and a winter festival in Sapporo.

And it looks so cool.

And we were sister cities and I've never been there.

So I'd really like to go see the ice festival at the winter festival and see the ice, ice sculptures there.

And also I'd like to go back to Tokyo Tower talking about things that look like tourist traps.

49:23

We also went up there and I thought it would be a 45 minute thing and we were there for three hours because it turns out if you're on the top of this amazing city, you see things differently.

And I could have been there for three more hours if there was better food.

And, you know, we weren't trying to get to the next thing that we had to get to at a certain time.

49:39

But I'd go back and spend and slow down South.

One is do something new and the other is do something you've done but do it again and do it slower and see if you don't see something different.

49:51

Speaker 3

It's great advice.

One last question for you, Brad.

What's 1 habit or strategy or approach that you'd pass along to to the fellow traveler?

50:02

Speaker 1

When I was living in Japan, one of my fellow one of my colleagues who was living in are working there also at the same time said probably after a moment of frustration that we had had with something Japanese or us being Westerners, whatever, all cultures make sense in their own terms.

That really made sense at the time, made sense of a lot of things.

50:20

Otherwise you end up stubbing your toe a lot and the immature reaction might be to blame them, blame the wall for you kicking it.

But if you see, well, why is that wall there, right?

Should have walked around it because this or that.

50:36

Or like, why are these lines on the side of the gate by the Shinkansen?

Well, they're so you know where to stand so that people can gracefully and easily get off quickly.

And then the people who are queued up can then quickly get on and it all works.

But if you missed that queue like I did, you end up kind of in the way I could get mad that all these people were coming off the train right in front of me and like, shoving us out of the way.

50:58

Or maybe we were in the wrong place.

And once I realized we were in the wrong place and how artfully the whole place is arranged, it all made sense.

And again, we won't make that mistake again.

But I also appreciate, Wow, 50.

Every 15 minutes, this thing goes 203 hundred miles an hour to the next stop.

51:14

That's pretty spectacular.

We have to get out of our own way sometimes.

Again, that perspective all cultures make sense in their own terms, has helped me see a lot of things differently and question my assumptions to the point where I could could get to appreciation and learning.

51:36

Closing Remarks with Ari

Big thanks to Brad for joining us in this episode.

I'm so glad that you came on board here and you're the 1st guest that we had in this podcast.

Not just because we've known each other a long time, but really, you think about it.

Brad and I both came to Japan from the same starting point.

We've had very different experiences over time, but you can also see the similarities and some of the observations that we have along the way.

51:56

That's part of what I liked about this conversation.

There are so many things.

We talked about food, talked about Kyoto, about the good old days in Japan.

52:04

Speaker 3

But.

52:04

Speaker 2

Underneath that, if you think about it, what we're really talking about is paying attention to the trip that you're on right now or the trip that you're about to take.

Yeah, the screen can help, the research can help, the map can help.

But at some point, you got to look up, you got to experience the place that you're at.

52:24

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Until next time, safe travels.