Podcast Episode “Kyoto Tour Guides”

0:01

It's all about human connection and how an experience is suddenly changed and customized to the interests of one of our clients.

What we do is to try to provide a service that we would like to receive if we were traveling.

0:18

Kyoto being the ancient imperial capital Kyoto, you can find 17 UNESCO World Heritage site and that culture is still very much alive in Kyoto.

0:38

Thanks for checking in.

This is the Japan Travel Pros podcast.

Each week we bring you stories and fresh perspectives about the people and places that make Japan so interesting.

Along the way.

You'll hear practical advice for planning your own trip.

In this episode, we're joined by Laura and Javier, AKA Kyoto Daily Tours.

0:58

We talk about what makes a great guide, how Kyoto has changed over the years, why flexibility matters, and why some of the most memorable moments happen in between the famous sites now.

Javier was our wedding portrait photographer, and we can personally vouch for his talent, not only behind the lens, but at the helm of a fantastic network of guides across Kyoto and around Japan.

1:22

Laura and Javier run Kyoto daily tours.

They've helped thousands of travelers in Japan, including many of our clients.

At Japan Travel Pros.

You're going to find out how to go beyond the checklist, beyond the famous places, and immerse yourself in the stories, in the neighborhoods and the little details that can completely change how you see Kyoto and maybe even how you see Japan.

1:46

Let's get started.

Both of us came to Japan the same way.

Both of us actually got a scholarship, the Momokaakusho scholarship, and both of us did our graduated studies in Kyoto University.

2:06

That's what brought us to Japan originally.

Then after we graduated from Kyoto University, we started different projects, a little bit of research work, but then Kyoto Elite Tours was born in the search for different kinds of interests and projects and.

2:24

We were studying at the university, doing our postgraduate studies.

At that time there was a demand for tour guides that could speak Japanese and speak other languages like English and Spanish, which we do.

2:41

And most importantly, they knew about the culture.

They, we've been here for a long time and we knew people that have been living in, in Kyoto for a long time.

So we, we knew how to move around.

And during the many years at, at university, we learned about the history of Japan.

3:00

So we were a good fit to provide explanations to to travellers and we decided to gather like minded people from the university and we formed this this small enterprise where we started offering our our services as guides and it went well.

3:20

Now we're much more mature.

We learned many other aspects that go beyond guiding.

We learned a little bit more of the business industry.

We are trying to to improve customer service, you know, all these little things that require a lot of attention to to detail in order to be more competitive and to bring a better service.

3:47

Thinking back to around the time that you got started, what was the travel scene in Kyoto like?

Well, it was a couple of years before the pandemic and that's when the late Shinzo Abe started one of the economic pillars strategies to develop Japan, which was tourism.

4:09

But when the time what the, when we first came to Japan, tourism was very low in the list of industries here in Japan on service industries.

But Shinzo Abe is started implementing the this new, new policies, attracting more and more people.

4:24

And we saw this coming like a, this gross exponential growth of visitors.

So there was a huge demand for tour guides initially that stopped for a while because of COVID, but we, we never did stop.

4:41

We, we, we kept the learning from it.

But basically that, that's it.

That's how it, it went.

So we've seen it since Japan was very quiet.

And now we're having the the extreme opposite problem, which is over tourism.

4:57

An important event or a milestone that triggered especially I think it was Japan or Kyoto.

It was chosen as a favorite destination by travelers around the world by the magazine Travel and Leisure in 2013 and 2014.

5:15

And we saw that gradually, gradually after that, more and more people started coming to Kyoto.

So it's changed dramatically from the moment we started until now.

Yes, yes, I think a lot of Europeans come to visit Japan in summer.

5:30

There is this sort of double edged sword of coming in the summer.

Summer months in Japan are hot, notoriously hot and humid.

But summer is the time as well when many Europeans and many N Americans can get the most time to to get away.

So what do you find with clients who come?

5:48

How prepared are they for summers in Japan, particularly for summers in Kyoto?

And what do you find that they experience along the way?

Well, they are.

Most clients are never well prepared for summer in Japan because they never expect summer in Japan to be this humid and to be this hot, especially for people coming from Spain or from the Middle East, even some places in South America, some places in Mexico, even Colombia, Costa Rica.

6:16

Yes, we have humid places and hot places like Kyoto is in the summer, but they are always surprised.

They never expect Kyoto to be this hot and to be this humid.

So that's when we come to our our role as travel designers or guides is important because we then advise them to start early in the morning.

6:41

All the advices that you can share with clients.

Yeah, yeah.

One thing is that if I'm not mistaken, we have been breaking average maximum temperatures for the last three years.

The average highest temperature in Kyoto last year was 40°C.

6:59

So we've never had 40 as a maximum.

Well, and I've never experienced it in 17 years.

It is surprising for many visitors to arrive one of these very hot days, and especially Kyoto, because there's not much of A breeze.

7:16

Osaka and Tokyo are a little bit cooler, yeah.

But yeah, yeah, it can be a problem.

Yeah.

You have to really let them know the clients to start early, to have a frequent breaks, to drink a lot of water if possible, to go inside and rest under the air conditioning.

7:36

But yeah, it is a challenge.

Exactly as Javier and Laura have been saying, you want to get out early, you want to hydrate, you want to get into air conditioning whenever and wherever possible and take whatever precautions that you can, right?

I'm now focusing on photography, so it's not uncommon to start a photo shoot around 5:30 in the morning.

7:59

It gets so hot that people start sweating so much that so they don't look as glamorous as they should be right with the heat.

We have received requests by clients to start tours as early as 6:00 AM or 7:00 AM, and that's definitely something that we can do because we know that by 11:00 AM it's going to be extremely hot and most customers, most participants of our tours will have to take a break.

8:27

One of the advantages to doing a private tour is most group tours are going to start at 9:00 in the morning.

But if you do have guides available who will say, yeah, you know what, I'm available.

If anything I'd rather start the tour at six and be finished, or at least be able to take a break in the middle of the day as opposed to having to start at 9 and really be sweating.

8:45

Is it more common louder than to have a four hour tour?

1/2 day tour as as opposed to a full day tour in the summer.

Yes, correct.

That's a common pattern.

Definitely 4 hour tour, 6 hour tours instead of eight hour tours, and most of the time started starting early in the morning or late at night.

9:05

In the evening, maybe after five and then three, two hours, 3 hours.

That's a good point.

There are some fantastic sites that are open that are accessible in Kyoto well into the evening.

There's one or two they're even open all night for that matter.

Yeah, places like Fushimi Nagi walking all around Higashiyama and Gion, even Kyoto Station.

9:26

Kyoto Station's a lot of fun at night and some good eats around there as well.

If anything, Guillon, Guillon in the evening and the, as you, as you get into the later evening hours and the, and certainly in the early morning hours, those are great hours to be walking around the historic parts of Kyoto anyway, aren't they?

9:43

Yeah.

After six PM, 7:00 PM.

Then it cools down and people get more energy to walk around.

More energy and also is even in the summer, is it, is it still pretty quiet in, in Gion or in Hingoshiyama, for example, we, we've noticed in the fall and the winter and the spring that the streets tend to empty out.

10:06

The day trippers are done and around the, the, the side streets, especially in Gion, it's usually pretty quiet.

But does that change in the summer?

It does change in the summer because you know, we have sunset starting at 6:50, almost 7:00 PM.

10:21

So you will see more people walking around.

It will to be definitely more active, but as soon as the temples close people can start exploring Kikashiyama and all these parts of Kyoto with with less crowds.

10:49

Tokyo.

One of the Tokyo airports, Narita or Haneda, is most commonly the gateway the airport into Japan for a lot of people.

So they've already been in Tokyo.

They've already experienced big crowds and mega city vibes.

And they're looking forward to coming to Kyoto and getting a little calm.

11:05

And sometimes they're in for a little a little shock to see some of those midday crowds in some of the most popular places, right?

Yes, yes, that that is something that's happening very often, especially if you come to Japan without planning.

We try to help with that because it can be very disappointing for some travelers that have seen the the pictures.

11:28

When you Google Kyoto or you Google a particular temple or you Google some nice areas in, in Tokyo city, you will see these beautiful empty spaces, right?

And then you arrive and reality is completely different.

11:44

You see hundreds and hundreds of foreigners and you know, we are, we are loud and rowdy and it completely can destroy your image of, of the place you you have in your mind, right?

11:59

So we try to help with that.

We try to customize tours and try to show them not only the the famous landmarks and the most popular landmarks, but we try to balance them with places that are not going to be crowded.

12:15

And especially we try to time the the experience so we can get around it.

But this is a thing that's happening very, very often.

Your point there, Javier, about the reality versus expectations.

12:31

Every now and then on, on social media, we, we will see the occasional shot of, for example, the, the famous bamboo Grove or bamboo forest, if you will, in Arashiyama, TikTok versus reality.

And TikTok shows you this, this empty idyllic scene of this, this bamboo forest.

12:48

And the reality is the thousands of people who are packed into it, right?

Yeah, Yeah, that is very common, especially when the one you said that the Golden Pavilion, the the bamboo forest, maybe Fushimi Inati or are maybe the top three spots that everybody wants to see and visit.

13:06

Of course, that's where everybody is and they're all trying to take the same the same photo.

And it's almost impossible to get a good one without people in the background.

Even AI is working a little bit overtime to try to erase the the people out of them with those photos, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, that's true.

13:22

But as I said, if you plan, it's possible to, to see it in, in at the best time with the least amount of crowds.

So we try to, to help with that.

And depending on the season, it's very seasonal, depends on the season, depends on the weather.

13:38

It depends on if there's a holiday or if there's a festivals program.

So we have to check and then decide when it's best to, to go.

So we we try to do that with with our clients.

Your planning is important and, and you're doing a large part of that heavy lifting, if you will, for your clients.

14:00

And I know for example, for our clients, many, many of our clients have taken tours with your guides.

The feedback from all of our clients has been so positive.

Working with your guides at Kyoto Daily Tourism, by the way, not only in Kyoto, but in other cities in Japan, like Tokyo, for example, like Hakone, but especially in Kyoto.

14:20

And the feedback is overwhelmingly positive because everyone says, yes, I got to see some of the highlights, but I also got to go to some places that I didn't know existed and weren't nearly as crowded.

And those are often some of the most memorable experiences, aren't they?

14:37

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Yeah, that that's what we're trying to do.

And, and sometimes it, it comes naturally, right?

Is, is, is spontaneous?

Because as locals, we've been living in Kyoto and all the guides in our team have been living in Kyoto for many years, longer than 5, but most of us longer than a decade.

14:56

You know, back roads, alleys that connect the temple with a shrine that are just part of your daily life.

And you cannot feature or upload a TikTok video.

And actually you shouldn't.

And that's the secret.

And many, many of the participants or clients that have participated in our tours always say, yeah, I enjoy the temples.

15:18

I enjoy the shrines.

I enjoyed major castle.

But you know, and I enjoy the most the conversation we had in between this place and this place.

What a beautiful alley.

What what a nice coffee shop you showed me here.

What a nice matcha shop we went to visit.

15:34

Those are the little things that add on to an experience when you hire a private guide.

We hear that as well from again, from our clients at Japan Travel Pros, those clients who've taken a tour, whether it's 1/2 day tour or a full day tour with a guide from Kyoto Daily Tours.

15:50

The feedback is just that, Laura.

It's, it's people say, wow, the guide took us to lunch at this amazing place.

We had this conversation with this little old lady who ran the restaurant or as you said, a cafe or a coffee shop, or we got these colorful stories and insights and being able to go around for a day with a local.

16:11

That's priceless.

I mean, there is a price on the tour, but that the experience is priceless, isn't it?

I think it was one year ago, it was winter day and I had a private tour with only one person.

I was the guide and we had a plan, but then as we started talking and commuting from, you know, going from one place to another, then the client told me, let's just go to places, but let's keep talking.

16:35

Let's not enter the places because I'm learning more from our conversation.

I'm enjoying more.

You're showing me places, coffee shops, this shop where I can find this craft is I don't want to go to the places.

And that was a surprise.

Of course, this is not common, but that was an anecdote.

16:52

That's something that it's so it can happen like this.

It's all about human connection and how an experience is suddenly changed and customized to the interests of one of our clients.

Absolutely, Laura.

And people more and more these days are lacking in human connections.

17:11

If you look at the travel scene these days, less and less human interaction and less and less opportunity to interact with locals.

Yeah, this is a, this is a problem.

It's growing and growing because the industry is growing as well.

What we try to do is to try to provide a service that we would like to receive if we were traveling somewhere else.

17:34

I think that's very, very important.

We, we try to make everybody comfortable depending on, on their, their needs, right?

And that's maybe the, the part where you need skills or most of our guides require not only the knowledge, not only the navigation skills, but they also need that human touch in order to, to accommodate to their, their preferences, their styles, what they want to see, what they want to experience, right.

18:04

So, yeah, that is very important and often we see that it's not addressed by many in the industry.

Many people hesitate, of course.

It will add on in your budget, of course, depending on who your provider is for your the services you are interested in taking.

18:21

But hiring a guide, especially a private guide, has the advantage of having a person, a human being that is there to read who you are and accommodate your experience to who you are and what interests you is I would say a big part like reading the room, what Japanese people say here, Cookie or Yobu in the 1st 5 minutes, 15 minutes, thirty minutes, you are reading your client and you know what they are interested about and you know that.

18:51

Now your plan probably will have to be adjusted and maybe you will have to start suggesting this or that.

That is something that you cannot plan because it changes you.

Of course you have a plan, but flexibility is also important.

19:08

Finding that balance between both good planning and flexibility and reading the person that you are with your.

Client that's such a huge concept in Japan, the Kuki Oyomu, as you said, reading the room.

The other thing we hear a lot about in Japan and these go hand in hand is the service concept of Omo tenashi.

19:30

As you're describing the tour, Laura, I'm thinking this is a lot like going to a nice tie in sushi restaurant in Omakase, for example.

And this is the same thing.

The the sushi chef, if you will, who's right in front of you is watching everything and listening to you and seeing what you eat and how you react to it and deciding the next course.

19:50

And that's exactly what you're doing as a guide a lot of the time, isn't it?

I completely agree.

It's exactly that is that is basically like omakase for you based on just about very subtle things like of course you start with content or what you.

20:05

You usually share with your clients and you see a reaction.

They are more interested in history, maybe more art, culture, pop culture, anime.

Then you will have to adjust and then rearrange.

Probably the plan, of course, always discussing it with the client.

20:24

At some point everybody on their Japan trip hits temple and shrine fatigue.

You must see this especially in non verbal ways, in their body language and things like that right?

Yeah, we have had customers that have immediately told us no more shrines and no more temples.

20:40

And then you have a plan.

What should you do?

I would say a strength that many of of the team members have, they are able to create a plan out of the South.

What can you do?

You have to not improvise because fortunately you have a background living in the city and you of course know places.

21:02

You might have ideas here and there.

Maybe you will have to make a call, make a reservation, but you should be able to to do that.

And that's the secret of good service, right?

Even if it is last minute.

And of course, we know that sometimes here in Japan that can be problematic changing the plan that you have last minute.

21:22

But that's something that you you should be able to do because most people come to Japan and they never expect, although they have read their itinerary with their, with their guide and the first that is providing the service, but they never expect that is all about shrines and temples.

21:38

Sometimes they they may not know much about those places, so that's why they they get surprised it's.

One of the things that you don't know until you come here and then all of a sudden you're like, it's day three and you're like, OK, I, I think we just hit that saturation point.

The, the, the point of diminishing marginal returns, if you will.

21:55

And yeah, we need to do something else.

But as you said, and I, I think that's really important, Lauda, it's not improvisation.

It's having a Plan B or a plan C and knowing when to switch over to that and go onto that track really quickly.

Yeah, absolutely.

I agree.

22:10

And sometimes they tell you that directly.

We don't want to see more tempos and that's, that's perfect.

We, we can go somewhere else, but sometimes out of politeness, the customers won't say they don't want to see more temples, but that's where the skill of the guide comes in, right?

22:27

You have to read them.

You have to know if they're enjoying or not the, the, the trip.

You have to see their faces.

You have to check on the kids.

You have to see a husband because sometimes it's the wife that books the tour and the husband's just tagging along and he, he doesn't like the, the itinerary because too many temples or vice versa, doesn't matter.

22:46

But that's where the tour guide has to be astute and to be able to tell this is going on, provide alternatives.

Sometimes the shrines or temples and monuments serve as the stage for a very enjoyable conversation.

23:03

Yeah, sometimes about the place, but sometimes also about your perspective or how you see things as a guide from your point of view as an expat living in Japan that has lived here for many years.

So why do you think in Japan things are done this way?

23:21

How difficult was it for you to embrace this aspect of Japanese culture and so on and so on.

And when you suddenly realize, oh, you have seen the the temple, you have finished that Camiso that are you have finished.

And then you had a very enjoyable conversation.

23:39

That's something that I I myself enjoy about guiding and I'm pretty sure all the guides in our team do as well.

24:01

If you're taking a private tour, certainly we know it's is the case with Kyoto daily tours.

You're going to get flexibility.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, that's very important.

And it happens, of course, you're you're traveling and being late happens.

So we understand that sometimes you oversleep or sometimes you take the wrong train and you go the other way around or you miss somebody.

24:26

And so you have to wait for for everybody in the group to gather.

So this thing's happened.

And if it happens to you when you come to Japan and you have a guide, if the guide is Japanese, it's a restaurant staff is Japanese.

24:41

If the person in the hotel any, any Japanese you're dealing with and you have this kind of problem, of course it's understandable.

But don't forget, you must apologize.

You must apologize.

Don't be too casual like in Western countries, say like, Oh yeah, I'm 15 minutes late.

24:59

Sorry about that.

And yeah, let's keep going, right.

Go a little bit further, be nicer.

Because in Japan being late is it's a big, it's a big no, no.

So they, they will understand.

But you have to really show that you you regret being late.

25:21

So this is part of the culture you have to accommodate.

And Japan is a country where the group is very important and the group is more important than the individual.

So if it ever happens, just be honest and tell them.

I'm very sorry I'm late, but I, I, I didn't want to cause any, any trouble and explain.

25:42

And if you're nice, Japanese will be also very nice and perfectly understandable.

So, yeah, but this is one of the big cultural differences we have because sometimes being a client, as a client, you're paying for the service.

25:58

So then most they have mentality, this doesn't matter.

I'm paying so I can arrive at the time I want.

I can cancel even because there's going to be a deposit for let's say first dinner.

It doesn't matter.

I already paid.

We can just cancel, not go out.

26:14

I'm feeling tired.

So this happens a lot in Western countries, but here in Japan that's a big no no, right?

You can be offensive if you just casually do these things.

So try to be extra polite and people here will be very nice to.

26:35

You.

Yeah.

Our role is to mediate and many of the Japanese guides that work with us, many of them have had the experience of living abroad in South America, the US, Australia.

So they, the good thing about all the guides in our team is that that double perspective, knowing that Japan is so unique in this aspect, like punctuality, like planning.

27:04

And that's precisely why people find Japan so interesting, because everything works here.

Every All systems are reliable.

There is a good reason for that.

But that part of the culture is also the part that explains that you have to be punctual.

27:21

You have an itinerary to follow.

The The main role of all the guides in our team, both both expats and long time residents and Japanese who have lived abroad is to interpret.

Because for newcomers to Japan is not something that they grasp quickly.

27:40

Why can't, if I go to a restaurant, why can't I change my rice for more salad?

Then someone has to be there to explain why or why when you come to a restaurant, you cannot just enter and sit in a table.

You have to always announce yourself that mediation and that that interpretation is is really important to make the experience smooth and enjoyable for a visitor.

28:04

That's such an important thing, Lauda, and you're on the frontline.

So you see this.

I heard it recently referred to, and this was, this was specifically from Americans.

And it's OK, I'm an American.

I can say this.

I heard it referred to as American consumer privilege, the idea that you can not just walk into a restaurant, walk into a restaurant, walk into a store, walk into any what you perceive to be a business transaction and think, well, I'm the customer here.

28:32

I'm, I'm paying you money.

Therefore this is going to go my way all the way.

And in Japan it is definitely not seen that way, is it?

Yes, that is.

Absolutely correct.

And, and, and to be fair with Americans, Latin Americans are always the same way.

28:49

We have that yeah, idea as well.

When you pay for a service, basically you are entitled to flexibility.

You are pretty much entitled to be Okya Kusama literally in the in the strict sense, Yeah, it's not only in, in, in the States, in South America and Latin American countries.

29:08

It happens as well that in Japan there are certain rules that are not written here and there.

So that's why having someone that helps you navigate all these differences.

Japan is a unique place.

It's a country that people want to come to see precisely because of their unique culture.

29:29

But that unique culture also has many nuances and rules that are not explained anywhere, not explained in travel guides.

And only, only a local will help you navigate those differences and will help you also avoid an uncomfortable experience.

29:49

Because here in Japan, respect is an important value.

It's a very important value that permeates daily life in so many different ways that we, coming from the West, not necessarily understand at first instance.

30:06

So you need someone that helps you navigate, especially as soon as you get the basics, then you can go by yourself.

So let's add that to the list of the things that a private guide can offer.

And whether you're in Tokyo, Kyoto, another city, if you have the chance to spend the day or the better part of a day with a local, not only will you see the sights, not only will you get the stories, but for example, if you're having lunch, the guide might say to you, oh, you have to take your shoes off.

30:34

We're going into this part of the restaurant.

Or, oh, what you're doing there with your chopsticks.

Yeah, don't put your chopsticks there or something like that.

It may seem like a little thing, but you'll remember that for the rest of your trip and probably the next time you come back to Japan as well or eat in a Japanese restaurant in your hometown, etcetera.

I also know that some of your guides have helped some of our clients just navigate the transit systems in, especially in in in Tokyo, for example, and just show them get an IC card, how to board a subway, how to ride on the train and basic things that they were able to use for the rest of their trip.

31:07

Yes, yes, well, yeah, that is part of our job and it's not the most glamorous part, but sometimes we are asked directly.

I mean, why should why should I hire you?

Right.

Because I, I'm not interested in history and I can use Google Maps and it will take me where I want to go.

31:27

So why should I hire you?

And I usually tell them, like, even if you can do all that, if you want to be efficient, if you just don't want to think of how to move from point A to point B, how to transfer from line A to line B.

31:45

If you don't want to address the little difficulties of getting that IC card, as you mentioned, or paying in cash.

Because Japan is still based on cash and you don't have to exchange the money.

And those those little troublesome things that are practical things that you have to know and where to get these tickets and stuff like that.

32:07

Just for that, the experience will be worth it because you don't you'll just, you do what you want to do, go where, wherever you want to go.

And you won't have to be thinking about all these cumbersome little things.

We'll do that for you.

32:23

And then, of course, they decide to go with us and we do exactly as promised, even if they're not really interested in learning, which is the vast minority, I think, of clients.

But we do have do have them.

And then they were like, yeah, it was great because everything worked like a charm and we didn't lose time.

32:41

And I managed to do the things I wanted to do and see what I wanted to see.

That is one thing about hiring a professional guide that is that makes the whole trip worth making it everything much more efficient and so you don't have to think about the the little complications that are involved traveling abroad.

33:10

Got a Japan trip on the radar?

You might have noticed something.

There's no shortage of Japan related content out there.

This podcast included But you know the hard.

Part is knowing what actually matters for your trip.

Should you stay here or there at another city or slow down?

33:28

Follow the popular advice or ignore it all together?

Book the hotel everyone recommends or the one that actually fits what you want.

That's where a lot of folks turn to Japan Travel Pros.

We help you sort through the choices, make better decisions and feel more confident.

33:45

Before you touchdown in Tokyo or land in Osaka, go to japantravelpros.com/plan.

To schedule a consultation.

What do people imagine when they think of Kyoto and when they start planning their Kyoto trip?

34:01

Where are the places they want to go?

What are the experiences they want to have?

What are their preconceptions and how does that differ once they get here and once they start to experience it?

First one, and I think that this is not only about Kyoto, but about Japan in general.

34:18

Many people just assume that they will be able to navigate the city reservations in general just by speaking English.

So most people tend to assume that in Japan, people speak English as their second language everywhere, and that's not the case.

34:39

Shouldn't be the case as well because we're in Japan.

So definitely that's something that people get surprised about and as well, especially here in Kyoto or being being kind of difficult to navigate the city only with English, especially local areas where people in restaurants won't speak English.

34:59

But something else is that regarding places that most people want to see, I would say the iconic places in Kyoto, right, Kuchiminari, Kyomizu, Dera Kinkakuji, the bamboo forest in Arashiyama.

And most people think that those places are not going to be as crowded as they are, especially during the peak season, the cherry blossom season, March, April.

35:28

And sometimes even when people come in what is considered to be the low season, January, February, maybe sometimes May, June, September, they expect to see the most famous places in Kyoto and not so crowded.

And that's not always the case.

35:45

Yeah, I would say that those would be two things that people get surprised by when they when they come to Kyoto.

I have one people that have the idea that Kyoto is a tiny, tiny town, or it's actually just a small neighborhood.

They come here and then they realize it's much bigger than they thought.

36:05

And it has many, many more places and landmarks to to explore, to see, to visit.

And then they realize, oh, the the ancient capital is actually big and they regret planning for such a short time to visit the city.

36:22

And if possible, they try to extend it for more, but sometimes it's not possible.

So they say they'll come back and next time they'll they allocate at least three or four days to to see the city.

That happens a lot less and less though.

Yeah.

They also I would add that they many people think that Kyoto is very close to Tokyo because they here is just to our is a 2 hour ride from Tokyo on the train, but it's actually the bullet train.

36:52

It would be a long drive.

Sometimes people ask us, oh, can I, Can I drive to Kyoto?

Yeah, you don't want to do that, that trends get you there so fast.

But no, it's, it's not close.

On the other hand, people are often surprised how close Kyoto and Osaka are.

They're imagining this sort of maybe a triangle between Osaka and Kyoto in in Tokyo.

37:10

But it's like, no, Tokyo is the far 1.

Kyoto and Osaka are our neighbors.

They're incredibly close, maybe 30 minutes by special rapid right and 15 minutes by bullet train.

You can actually see Osaka city from from the hills here in Kyoto.

37:27

So it's very close.

The interesting thing is that the most different people, there's a big divide between cultural aspects from Kyoto people and Osaka people, even though the cities are almost contiguous.

Do you know about the these differences between people from Osaka and Kyoto?

37:45

Oh my gosh.

So I always tell our clients we're all in the same metropolitan area, if you want to call it that.

Kolbe, Osaka, Kyoto, Hemeji on one side, Nada on the other side.

People who live in these cities are all different from each other.

Kolbe is different from Osaka.

38:02

Osaka is much different from Kyoto.

To be a Kyoto person, you have to be indirect, never say anything directly.

So you have to understand intentions.

So this is one of the typical examples.

38:17

When they ask you for tea, they're just telling you please leave.

It's funny and it's remarkable to me that two cities that are visible, as you said, you, you can see the skyline of Osaka from certain parts of Kyoto.

And yet the cultures couldn't be more different in terms of in terms of being in Japan, yes, they're Japanese, but Kyoto very indirect, some might call it passive aggressive.

38:38

Osaka.

Very direct, very blunt.

No filter.

That is, that is true.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It is interesting because most of the friends we have in Japan, Japanese friends that are not from Kyoto, whenever we say, oh, we live in Kyoto, they say oh, so difficult, It is so difficult.

39:00

Kyoto is so beautiful but so difficult.

Even other Japanese people.

So we are always surprised by that.

When we share with with clients about that and they always say why we the conversation is always about Kyoto being the ancient imperial capital of Japan and how of course the city is still maintains that pride, right?

39:24

Like you only, you know, in Kyoto you can find 17 UNESCO World Heritage sites.

That doesn't come for free.

You know, of course the people in the city have a pride and they have a way of doing things.

This was the home of the emperor and the imperial court for so long.

So of course people had to maintain a way to to socialize and live in harmony with others.

39:45

Not saying things directly was part of it.

And that culture is, is still very much alive in in Kyoto.

Yeah, our our neighbor always, she used to explain part of that to us.

Like be careful, Kyoto.

40:01

You have to always know your way, the rules.

The unspoken Yeah rules.

Yes, yes.

The unspoken rules, the important ones.

Yeah, that's unfortunate because if you move to a new community, for example, in the US, you know, in one of those suburban communities, there's a there's an HOA, right?

40:18

There's a homeowners association.

They at least give you a little book, a little manual, you know, you know what the rules are.

But in Kyoto, there's no book.

There is no book and you have to be a good observer and just follow the rules.

We have an anecdote.

We live in a traditional Machiya neighborhood here in Kyoto.

40:37

Machiya houses are traditional Japanese townhouses, mostly wooden, made from wood in this neighborhood.

Yeah, mostly people from Kyoto live around this area.

Just next to our house, we have an altar dedicated to a Buddhist deity called Jesusam to protects children and travelers and women.

40:57

We always saw that the community and different homeowners used to clean it and take care of it.

But we have lived here for almost five years, and only last year, one day we stepped out of the house.

And then we found cleaning equipment, wooden frame with names and dates.

41:16

And then I just went to ask my neighbor, what's this for?

And she said, ah, welcome now you belong now it Of course she said it in a different way.

But now it is your turn to clean, O Jesus.

But after almost five years living here, we are finally invited to we're.

41:37

Finally.

Of cleaning, O Jesus, that's.

A really unique story.

I could see that.

I could totally see that.

Now, was there an expectation that you were supposed to clean sooner than that and you didn't?

41:52

Did you miss it somewhere, do you think?

Or did did they just say, OK, well now, now you're one of us for something?

No, I think they just said they are foreigners, they're not going to understand.

So they never decided on and they never thought on on giving this responsibility to us and until they saw that we were serious about living in Japan and, and staying and being good neighbors.

42:17

So I think at some point they met and they said, OK, let's give them this responsibility.

They're here already for a long time.

So yeah, it was like a an honor for us to to do this court chores, right?

42:33

So now we have to clean it.

It's been a good experience because now we became friendlier with the with the neighbors.

This is good, yeah.

Communal bonding over cleaning, over authology chores.

That is something might be interesting for your listeners, especially for the Westerners and North American, the North American people is that you can't really say no in, in Japan.

42:59

I mean, in, in the Japanese language and in the Kyoto conversation style, it's, it's considered rude to say no.

So that may come like, so surprise, like a surprise for you, for you that are listening and they've never been to Japan.

43:19

But we were talking about the people being being very indirect.

So if you ask them for them to do something for you and they say, oh, it's going to be a little bit difficult or right now I, I don't have time, you should take that as a no, right?

43:37

And but, but nobody explains this to you when you arrive, right?

And so you, you, you actually really think maybe he's really busy or maybe he doesn't have time, or maybe he's at this time he can't do it, but maybe he'll be able to help me later.

43:55

So we foreigners tend to repeat the questions or ask again.

And that for Japanese is not nice, right?

So, but they, they won't explain it to you.

You're supposed to figure it out.

So one of the good things is now that we know is we we must never put pressure on Japanese.

44:17

So when you hear, oh, it's a little bit difficult, that means I'm not going to help you do do it by yourself or find somebody else.

So those little nice things, those little things are of the culture, very interesting and nice in Japan because once you know the rules, everything is so polite, right?

44:36

And nobody is denying anything to anybody.

It's like like a little choreography.

People go through the steps and nobody loses face when there's a conversation, when there's favors to ask.

It takes time and practice, but as I said, it's like a little dance you do, you play with your fellow Japanese and the same thing goes the other way around, right?

45:00

So when, if they ask you and if you can't do it on your own, do it, You can't say it, you can't say it directly, right?

You go and and do the little dance.

So that's a big difference from from our own local customs and traditions in Latin America.

45:16

And I'm pretty sure in North America pretty similar.

That's a big culture shock for a lot of people, even traveling here, definitely living here.

I certainly had to learn it over time.

Not to say that I'm.

I'm perfect now.

I'm far.

I'm still far from perfect at it, but I'm a little bit slightly less bad at it than I used to be.

45:34

Yeah.

Made made a lot of mistakes along the way.

And definitely I was one of those people who took somebody at their word when they said, oh, sure.

Well, next time we can.

We can do that.

Yeah.

There is no next time.

It turns out.

Yeah.

Aki's laughing in the background.

That one too.

45:58

It is a highly choreographed dance that is in many ways actually beautiful to watch.

When it's society doing that and it doesn't affect your plans, then, then that's fine.

As a visitor to Japan, you might experience this, for example, in a hotel or in a restaurant.

46:15

If you if you go to the front desk in the hotel and you ask them something, they might not say no.

But as Laura said, if you read the room, if you listen to the words that aren't being spoken, it's a very important thing in Japan.

The space is between the words.

You will eventually start to hear the no Javier, since you mentioned restaurant customization before.

46:34

Yeah, that's a big one.

And so the restaurant might not exactly say no, but they might say, well, I'll have to ask the chef, but he's on a smoke break right now.

And, and what is there's an audible, it's the sucking between this teeth sound.

46:50

It's like if you if you if you hear somebody doing that, it's like, Nope, that that's your no right there.

That's that's your cue.

It's like they're, they're, they're, they're breathing in and they're hoping you'll go away.

At the moment they say that that's no, just the moment.

The Japanese no admins say that's a big no.

47:09

Exactly.

But in terms of Kyoto being smaller, what we see along the way, for example, our clients, on average they will stay in Kyoto for four days, sometimes 5, sometimes 6, rarely less than three nights.

For example, during the planning process will let people know you don't have to stay in both Kyoto and Osaka.

47:30

You, you can base yourself in Kyoto.

Why not go for four or five or six nights?

Go to Osaka one day.

If you love it, as Javier said, it's, it's half an hour by train or or 15 on the bullet train.

If you're doing it that way, it's so close.

You can keep doing that or spend more time in Kyoto or in and around.

It's great for day trips.

47:46

It's a it's a great base.

Definitely I would recommend staying longer in Kyoto.

You will not regret it.

Kyoto is very close, as we said already, to Osaka, and also very close to Nada, which is even a older city than Kyoto, the First Capital.

48:04

A lot of our clients will ask, oh, do I need a tour guide in in Tokyo?

The last that is well, in Kyoto.

And for the most part, we'll say it's going to make your trip better.

A good guide, a good tour will always be a better experience, especially in Kyoto, but even in Tokyo.

The guide will help you to be in between Japanese culture and and your culture.

48:24

So it will make the transition much enjoyable, much easier.

So you will understand quicker things that you would you would understand by your own doing it by your own.

And it may take a longer time.

And especially if you're coming from far away and you want to make the use of your time efficient, then yeah, we definitely recommend a guide.

48:50

So you will learn much quicker and you will adapt much better to Japan.

And in the end, that gives you more joy of you get much more from your your trip.

I would say yes, at least four part of your trip.

49:08

Why?

There are different reasons, One of them the language barrier, definitely in Tokyo, people, Japanese people speak more English than here in Kyoto or Nara or Osaka.

But still a guide will help you navigate the cultural differences, navigation in the city, especially when it comes to Tokyo.

49:29

I think that a guide is essential to teach you how to navigate the city.

The the network of different train lines in Tokyo, the subway, Jr.

For people, sometimes it's really difficult to understand that there are different lines, not only the subway, but also different Jr. lines, Japan Rail, railways lines, but also private lines that are not easy to navigate at first instance.

49:59

So a guide will help you understand how you should buy a ticket, how to buy a Suika card, an IC card, basically how to move around the city.

And then basically one day of guiding will help you see how the city works.

50:15

Besides the navigation and transportation, what happens in the city.

Understand Tokyo, why it is now the capital of Japan.

Understanding that first understanding will help you enjoy more your experience.

Yeah, here in Japan and in Kyoto, definitely we've been talking about the rules that are not written anywhere here in Japan, the cultural nuances.

50:41

Reading the room, a guide will will help understand those differences and especially after one or two days you will feel definitely more familiar with how Japan works.

But at the beginning it won't be easy.

50:57

And most people come to Japan on a holiday, they want to relax, they want to enjoy.

So a guide is there to facilitate and to make your holiday more enjoyable.

You don't have to worry about combination.

You will have a good initial grasp of those rules that are not written anywhere and nobody tells you about.

51:21

Consider it as a way to sort of turbocharge your Japan trip and really step things up because it, it tends to pay off not only on that day, but in on all of the subsequent days during your trip.

Having said that, I, I understand the reluctance from some people because they'll say, well, I'm looking at some tours on on via tour TripAdvisor, on Get Your Guide or on other companies and the reviews are generally good, but they do kind of seem to be all over the place.

51:51

You don't know who you're going to get on any given day.

What I can say is we've had so many clients over the years take tours with your guides in, in Kyoto and in Osaka and in Tokyo and in Hakone for that matter.

I have not had one iota of negative feedback.

52:07

Everybody has enjoyed that tour.

They've always told me that day or the next day or later on the trip or after they got home, Wow, So much that we enjoyed from, from that tour, from our guide.

We, we learned so much.

We, we had such a great time.

You can see where that's going to make a difference.

52:25

Yeah, I, I think that, well, thank you for it.

We are super happy and glad to hear about the good feedback.

And I think that the the problem now is that mean that the tourism industry is growing so quickly and fast here in Japan that I have heard from colleagues and collaborators, for example, in Tokyo, that when you leave the a rock or a stone in Tokyo, you will find a guide.

52:54

Like there are just so many guides and people that just come now working holiday or that are that just came to Japan and literally started working and to work as a guide.

So of course they don't have in many cases their language knowledge and as well the background.

53:14

A long time living in in Japan will teach you many things like like the many things we have shared and they are guiding.

So most likely the experience is not going to be very rewarding to a person that hires to work with a guide that has not had a long time guiding here in in Japan.

53:35

And that's unfortunately happening quite frequently recently.

Sometimes the people are hiring tours on platforms where they don't even get the chance to talk to another person.

The booking is automatically done if there is another human with their answering.

53:54

Chances are you will get answers in case something goes wrong and if it is a platform a system, it will work well or not.

Travel and tourism was not a big thing in Japan until the early twenty 10s.

Essentially, Japan tourism is very much in a young stage.

54:11

And again, without without naming any names, there are small to medium sized businesses that are that are doing it well in so many different ways and so many different things.

And also unfortunately, there are some bigger companies out there.

And let's face it, some of them are not even Japanese companies.

54:28

They're not based in Japan.

They don't really even have a presence in Japan.

They're not vetting their suppliers.

They're not vetting the guides when it comes to chores.

They're not vetting the service providers in a lot of different things.

Again, we're not naming any names here, but at the very least if you're looking into any kind of travel experience in Japan, yeah, there's probably some essential questions that you can be asking such as are you based in Japan?

54:55

And that should tell you a lot of things.

The way you run your business and the, and the way we run our business is very much as a human business, a people to people business.

So for example, when you book a tour, yes, you'll initially be visiting the website kyotodailytours.com, but very quickly you'll be hearing back from Laura or somebody at Kyoto Daily Tours.

55:18

And from then on you are communicating with a person right up until the time that you meet your guide.

And of course, at that point you're communicating with a person as well.

That's correct.

Is exactly as you described is either me, Javier or two other people that help us here in the team with the bookings and then our big network of guides, a person to person business basically.

55:44

And of course, there will be a planning stage where you will have a conversation with or a client will have a conversation with a person, a person in the team that will help to customize the itinerary according to their interests.

56:00

For somebody planning their trip and maybe it's their first time in Japan or maybe they're making a return trip, what advice would you give that person who's maybe they've just booked their flights, now they're looking, they probably got Kyoto on their agenda?

We've talked about expectations versus reality.

56:15

We've talked about what it's like when you get here.

We've talked about the need for the traveller to be flexible and for the guide to be flexible.

And we've talked about the value of having a guide and the importance of choosing a good guide.

What else is missing?

Researching, really getting to know your destination.

56:32

It takes time.

When I travel I I know that I will have to dedicate some time to read, to really check options and ideally try to find someone there that is based in the destination that you are going to, in this case Japan.

56:50

Take your time to to read, to investigate, to get to know at least the basics about Japan and the places that you are going to.

Yes.

Yes.

And if they end up hiring us, you get it to get in touch with your guys before you arrive to your destination.

57:07

So yeah, you can actually talk and plan together and discuss together.

So it's not just that you book a tour and then you come to Japan and then you meet the person and just follow the scenario.

We try to make it more personal.

57:23

As Lara said, there will be planning.

You have to spend some time right, doing some research before you come to Japan and that will make everything much more enjoyable.

There's a sweet spot somewhere of yes, do the planning, do the research and do that so that you're comfortable and you're confident can hit the ground running.

57:43

But at the same time, especially once you get here, we also say, and I'm sure you say this with your clients as well, is make sure you're having a good time on the way.

And if someone can help you do the difficult stuff, the not so fun stuff, great.

And if that someone is a person that you are talking to, great, you are on the good track.

58:03

Big thank you to Laura and Javier Arigato, Josamas Muchisima de Gracias for sharing your time with us.

So much knowledge, such a wealth of experience about Kyoto and about Japan.

Love your stories, and we're very grateful for all the help you've given our clients over the years and the help that you've provided for our listeners right here in this episode.

58:26

You know, you gave us a great reminder as well that Japan is so much more than the collective highlights of its places.

Of course, it's all about the people.

This is true for any destination, anywhere you travel, the people who helped create the place.

58:42

And when you think about a place like Kyoto, the people who've made it great and memorable over the years, over the hundreds of years, over the millennia, really.

And also, as you've heard in this episode, the people who've chosen to call it home.

By the way, if you enjoyed this episode, we'd really appreciate it if you follow the podcast on your preferred podcast app of choice and leave us a rating or review.

59:06

It helps more travellers like you discover the show.

Hey, do you happen to know someone who's planning a trip to Japan?

I think we all do.

Well, why not share this episode with them?

New episodes are coming your way real soon, so stay tuned for more stories, more great conversations and much more from right here in Japan.

59:27

Thanks for listening, safe travels.